Homepage Forums Guitar Discussion Guitar Fender Statocaster, USA -vs- Mex. “Remember the Alamo&q

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  • #22602
    rparker
    Participant

    Fender Statocaster, American -vs- Mexican

    Does anyone have any comments or desire to compare? I have been modifying Mexico models to use American parts (tremolo, PUs, pots etc) and have found that there are many US made strats that came from factory with shim pads under the neck. “What a stupid thing to do for resonance.” One would think that for the add’l cost of a US made strat that the neck-to-body fit would be tighter than OJs glove. On the other hand I have been finding Mexican strat neck-to-body fits to be in many cases, shim-free and have measured resonance in both neck and body on both sides of the border and guess what? Alder for Alder (US for Mex) there are an equal number of long sustainers on each team providing the tremolos are identical (these tests are w/o amping). I have to say that the Ash bodies have different resonant frequencies and in many cases (not all) produce longer sustains where the mass of the body on an Ash body averages 10-18 ounces more mass weight.

    One little bit of discovery, by bedding the neck-to-body using aluminum dust in an epoxe resin (of course all parts are filmed with release agent prior) the OJ Glove thing is obtainable with any guitar and this process produces more uniform resonant frequency between body/neck and therefore the sustain in some cases (where shims were found) has doubled again w/o amplification. This is a technique used in high powered bench rest rifle competition to achieve uniform barrel vibrations i.e uniform point of aim/impact.

    A final note for Mexican army soldiers; a nice improvement for not a lot of dough to pickups is the GFS Alnico single coils vailable in various windings that really “Heat-Up” the signal to the amp over stock Mexican muskets.

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    • #65146
      mrblanche
      Member

      Call me Mike. “mrblanche” is just my initials and last name. Mister is too formal, mister!

      What we would really need is some way to “capture” the signal without it being affected by an amplifier, and then analyze it in something like the machine the CIA uses to analyze voices. It can show the huge differences between the best of mimics and the subject of their mimicry, analyzing overtones, hidden frequencies, etc. Wouldn’t that be fun?

    • #65174
      1bassleft
      Participant

      Welcome back, Kurt. There’s a point I hadn’t put in my head; it’s not what effect the guitar body etc has on the pups (virtually none) but what it has on the strings, I suppose. Like my example of the maple vs rosewood fretboard; I could see that as a direct effect on the string at the point of fretting. You can carry that on to the “angled headstock better than string trees” reasoning, although to a lesser extent because the nut is now in the way. FWIW, I do prefer the angled headstock, but for practical reasons rather than my ears saying something.

      I’m not sure how much the terms “attack” and “sustain” are genuinely a feature of tone (people’s definitions will vary) but, apart from headstock preference, I have a personal loathing for the bent piece of tin that Fender refer to as a “bass bridge”. Again, a lot of it is just practicalities but I doubt if it’s the last word in sustain either.

      Funnelly nuff, I bought a Washburn 5-string neck (for that project #4352) which has a (1) brass plate sandwiched between the headstock layers and (2) a Buzz Feiten nut. Because I made a hash of the body routing, I haven’t put it together to make an opinion. I cannot for the life of me see what’s so different about this nut that it wipes away the non-ideal behaviour of strings and eliminates the compromises of a fretted neck in one stroke, but then it’s not such a big issue with a (mostly) monophonic instrument like bass. Ed Roman reckoned that Washburn merely licensed the name as a sales gimmick, but then he would say that.

      Could be that the resonant frequencies of the various woods (and they will differ, for sure) make their play on how the strings vibrate. Strokes chin… ought to set aside some time for a bit of research into who’s done what on the subject… Still, no doubt Mr Blanche is correct in saying this is pretty minor compared with the acoustic world. Tres interesting thread, though.

    • #65165
      GitBoxKurt
      Participant

      Thanks 1bassleft, for your welcoming my sharing, and to not get bent out of shape by various comments of others, regarding writing, etc.

      No, your mention that my tuners wouldn’t be vintage wasn’t taken badly by me. I appreciated your knowledgeable input, and the input by various others on the topic of tone, what matters and what doesn’t.

      I’m glad for that mention someone had about the various visually challenged people who read these… I hadn’t thought about that, but will keep that in mind.

      I personally think that there’s lots of things that can affect ‘tone’ to some degree or not, depending on your ears, what type amp, settings, what date your grandparents came to America, and so on. (Some may or may not)

      When something changes in your tone, it’s easy to backtrack and see if you changed something recently (strings, springs, neck relief, and maybe tuning machines possibly).

      In some recent reading I’ve done regarding tone, trying to learn more about it, so as to get more from my instrument(s), there seems to be so much controvery by the ‘experts’, famous guitar technicians, like Buzz Fieten and his Fieten Tuning system for the guitar, that I understand Washburn is equipping some of their guitars with.

      He (Buzz Fieten, per Dan Erlewine’s book on setting up your guitar), Fieten seems to think that a negative neck angle and/or putting a shim or two between the neck and body (in the neck cavity, but on the tuning peg edge of the cavity) will give a guitar better ‘tone’, Buzz Fieten suggesting or implying something regarding that ‘separation of the neck and body’, that the body and neck each have their own vibrational frequencies, their own tones, etc., so he believes in shimming and negative neck angle…

      …But then of course, on the flip-side of the coin are the others who want to have a tight bonding of the neck to the body, the tighter the fit the better, hopefully without shims, and what Dan Erlewine in his book(s), and so many others tend to agree on, that “good coupling” contributes to good vibrational frequency transfer, better sustain, better tone, etc.

      I’m not going to bother with shims unless I have to with my strat, and think I agree with Dan Erlewine on that. After all, isn’t that why certain set neck guitars are preferable than their bolt on versions of the same, for tone, sustain, etc.?

      I’m liking my mexi strat more each day 😆 Happy plinkin’

    • #65157
      1bassleft
      Participant

      😆 , Lee. I was mindful of the “90% fingers” three-way flame war:
      https://www.guitarsite.com/hotlicks/viewtopic.php?t=440&highlight=

      continuing onto the thread “Bassleft is a big bollock”. Mr Blanche, you might enjoy a read of them, but I suggest you print them down and save them for that Delta flight from NY to LA. Or, if you’re in Britain, the time equivalent would be a Virgin Train from London to Watford.

      Back onto the thang, though, I’ve got a couple of points. That 6th form demo was really just a cheap, ply bass plugged into a very simple ‘scope as found in a college lab ca 1981. I don’t know if anyone’s done something a bit more substantial in this field. A perfect experiment would be to ask Warmoth to supply me with a Tele body in each of their humble and exotic woods and transfer the same electrics to each in turn. D’ya think I’ll get some freebies in the interests of investigative journalism? 😀

      I don’t doubt that the electrical side is the vast majority of a guitar’s sound, even without the benefit of a zoomable frequency, amplitude display. Giving it some serious thunk, though. We all know that “sounds good even when it’s not plugged in” thing we have about a nice electric guitar, yes? Of course, the pups have no part to play in this at all.

      Yet, once the sound is coming out of the amp, a magnetic pickup is all about the strings vibrating over a magnet with wire wrapped around it. The darn things are even potted in wax or epoxy to minimize any microphonic interference so, really, there shouldn’t be anything in it as regards body wood. At gig volumes, the only thing I can say hand on heart is that a lacquered maple fretboard has more initial attack and rosewood seems smudgier. On a bass, I prefer maple. That figures, because rosewood would have a different damping characteristic when fretted.

      But, a lot of my playing is at home, low vol, with or without guitarist, and ears (even mine) are very sensitive things. Perhaps I hear a little bit of that mahogany thru-neck acoustically and it sounds different to the alder bolt-on. Perhaps I choose an instrument to suit the sound I want, then play differently because I know what I’m aiming for. Like I said, psychology and the ability to convince ourselves of something are often factors. Even more sensitively tuned pros (and Carlos, because he’s actually an alien 😆 ) would be even more convinced. Plus, if a guitar looks and feels like perphooey, then you’ll be certain it’ll sound like it.

      If I had the time, I’d muck about with the piezo saddles and plonk them on various basses. That’d probably show up a bit more.

    • #65176
      mrblanche
      Member

      I suspect most of the “tone” is how a guitarist sets up his amplifier, after he’s chosen a guitar with electronics to suit his taste.

      I read Santana’s interview saying that PRS guitars had no “bottom” to their tone. Maybe his ears are better than mine. Well, that would be a safe bet, wouldn’t it?

    • #65172
      lee_UK
      Participant

      is 90% of tone in the fingertips? excuse me while i trawl my nets across old worn and shagged out long past posts..

    • #76153
      mrblanche
      Member

      Indeed, I suspected as much. My gut feeling is that a guitar string on a solid-body electric is a frequency generator and not much else. Very good guitarists have been known to disagree with that opinion, however, so we won’t be betting the farm on it, will we?

      But after all…if you can make a good guitar out of clear plastic, what can’t you make it out of?

      I would love to sit in front of an oscilloscope for a while, though.

    • #76135
      1bassleft
      Participant

      ps, can’t speak for guitar, but I put my bass through a ‘scope during a physics demo at 6th form. Much to my surprise, (and unlike a violin earlier) it was a very boring sine wave whatever I did. Could’ve been my playing, though 🙂

    • #76154
      1bassleft
      Participant

      Blanche, not only would I tend to lean more to what you’re saying than the opposite (I do draw the line at plywood, but of course ply guitars come with lousy electrics), but so would a very decent builder like John Kavanagh. I ‘phoned him once when I was thinking of making my own bass (job # 4352) and I said something dumbish like “I’ll probably go for swamp ash, because the early Fenders…”

      He kindof cut in and said I might as well choose a wood for ease of finishing (which swamp ash does not score highly on) because, in his opinion, it didn’t matter. As a scientist, I’m keen on proper measurements rather than blah. I do know a guy who had the run of his physics lab and Dewar flasks so he checked out the effect of cryogenically cooling valves/tubes. To paraphrase a British comedy show, “Computer said no” – much as I suspected it would.

      On TBL bass forum, a lot of typing was generated over Monster cable/George L/Canare/makes no difference. You had the physicists saying “capacitance blah impedance blah frequency cutoff 58kHz blah only dogs notice blah” and some players “enhanced mids blah fuller bass blah really cuts through blah”

      Then a psychologist (whatever happened to dumb bass players?) stepped in that it’s a well-known that people who fork out a lot of dosh for something will “hear” the sonic improvement because they’re damned well not going to let themselves realize that they’ve just blown money on nothing. So you get the $500 mahogany hifi knobs and $200 AC cable (both true). You also get the true story of the pesky A+R man who wouldn’t stay out of the band’s studio for their debut album. So the engineers and producer assigned him four unused channels. He spent days pushing faders and tweaking eq shouting “Oh yeah, baby, that’s it – that’s it”.

      Said psycho had carried out an experiment with local musicians who all swore by cable x and had them play through various cables on a blind test. The number who correctly identified their lead was nothing more than statistical chance. The thread died almost immediately.

      Still, I have to say that, if nothing else, the thru-neck mahogany perhaps encourages me to play differently to the bolt on alder. It just (bad science alert ❗ ) feels different.

    • #76148
      mrblanche
      Member

      I expressed an opinion up above about the effect of tuners on the tone of an electric guitar. Mind you, it’s just opinion, so now I’m really going to step in it.

      It has been said that when it comes to comparing building guitars to building ships, the solid-body electric guitar is the ship-building equivalent of a dugout canoe. If so, I guess that would make the National 3-Cone Resonator the fully-rigged clipper ship.

      Some say that essentially, if your soldi-body electric guitar is stiff enough to hold its tune, nothing much on it affects the tone, other than the pickups and the pots, which can have some effect. Others wax poetic on the relative merits of various woods, glues, finishes, even shapes and electrical cavities.

      So…is there anyone who has ever scientifically quantified all this with oscilloscopes, etc., or are we all sitting around (metaphorically) discussing whether a wine is “presumptiuous” or “oakey?”

    • #76142
      1bassleft
      Participant

      😆 I’d written
      a list
      that’s why, you
      eedjit, Lee 😆

      Aah, I was tired out until I read that. Cracked me up

    • #76164
      lee_UK
      Participant

      Have you noticed something.. every post,

      on here, has lots and lots.

      And lots of paragraphs in odd places.

      Making,

      Things very easy to read…..

      Sometimes. 😆 any chance of some nice big 22 point font sized letters for the spec wearers.

    • #65163
      1bassleft
      Participant

      Hi Kurt, sorry if you felt jumped on. You’re very welcome in and don’t be too thin-skinned about para-comments. People who leave their caps lock on get it in the neck in every forum I’ve seen 🙂 . And I’ve got MrBlanche’s quip in mind for a friend of mine whose emails and posts cause a grammar checker to smoke out in seconds. I get funny headaches from reading him.

      Back to the topic, though, I’m often sceptical about these claims surrounding the minor components of a guitar (or amp, for that matter)and their amazing effect on tone. In order of importance I’d put tone factors as (ignoring human stuff)
      Pickup electronics
      Pickup placement
      Body wood
      String materials and construction
      Neck and f/board wood
      thru-neck, set-neck, bolt-on-neck, Cheborneck

      then a hotch-potch of really minor things that may have a tone bearing (never tried ’em but I imagine SS frets are tangier than nickel “silver”) or sustain improvements like a massive bridge. Then there are the barking theories like “fenders sound better with the truss adjuster at the heel rather than the headstock” and such like. Such claims are rarely backed up in a solid, scientific way.

      I don’t know if my point that the Mex tuners are not classic components caused offence, but it’s a simple statement so I hope not. Apart from labour costs, the usual savings are made by costcutting in the components. The same goes for other countries and other brands. Some people do go to the trouble of replacing parts but (with the exception of the pups and pots, jack) it’s mostly a matter of functionality rather than tone mystique. Grovers, Gotohs and (esp) Schallers are better-working tuners than the stock issue. Extra weight will have such a miniscule sound effect I wonder if this idea has been blind A/B’d?

    • #76223
      mrblanche
      Member

      As a former English teacher, reading almost anything on the net is painful to me. I try not to get judgmental about it!

      Paragraphing, and almost anything else requiring skill, is a matter of practice. That goes for guitar playing, writing, driving, or almost anything worth doing.

      I have worked on several web sites, and it’s a constant pain trying to get people to write as if it mattered. Which, by the way, it does. Almost all web sites and forums and BBS’s have readers who are sight-challenged, and the programs they use deal very poorly with “non-standard” writing, capitalization, punctuation, spelling, etc. Imagine trying to read music in which every composer used his own rules for notes, timing, etc.

      As to the tuners…I have a hard time imagining the weight of a tuner would have any effect on the the tone, but that would be something interesting to try to quantify in a scientific manner.

    • #76146
      GitBoxKurt
      Participant

      To MrBlanche. Glad I paragraphed this 2nd submittal (so as to not be in the Monsieur Pavee…Mr. Paving Stone! category).

      Yes, paragraphing, and condensing info can be challenging to some, and is certainly something I need to work on, but at least I know now of others’ difficulty reading that 1st big block of text I sent. Sorry ’bout that.

      Thanks for the reminder though, without getting nasty at me.

      Harsh criticism usually isn’t necessary, but gentle reminders or mention as you (and others did) is nice, and usually would get better results than jumping on someone’s case, or name calling, so thanks for the civil mention, so I can try to improve and not be lumped into that Monsieur Pavee…Mr. Paving Stone category.

      Happy playing.

    • #76180
      GitBoxKurt
      Participant

      Sorry glw about too big a block without paragraphs…

      and thank you to 1bassleft for your nice input back regarding my tuners on my Mexi Strat. Since they’re not so likely to be any vintage, I won’t be so hesitant to replace them then, but…

      Regarding my tuners, I was reading about the difference tuners can make with tone, see “How to Make Your Electric Guitar Sound Great” by Dan Erlewine.
      According to that book, the heavier the tuners, the ‘darker’ the tone tends to be, and the lighter the tuners, the more ‘chimier’ the tone.

      I like the chimeyness of the tuners I have, but lack a ferrul on one, so likely will try replacing that (guitar’s new to me, used), and if it tends to be a tuning hassle then, I’ll replace the tuners, but will try to go with something light, so to keep the chimeyness it has.

      Back to about the weight of tuners affecting the tone though,…Here are the weights of popular tuners, not necessarily strat, but for others too, Les Pauls, etc., too…

      Grover Rotomatic 8.8 oz.
      Schaller M-6 7.7 oz.
      Gibson/Schaller M6 8.6 oz.
      Kluson Deluxe 3-on-a-side, (plastic keystone knob) 4.8 oz.
      New Kluson 6-in-line 5.9 oz.
      Gotoh Kluson Locking Tuner 4.95 oz.
      Old Kluson 6-in-line 5.0 oz.
      Sperzel 5.4 oz.
      Grover Imperial 10.3 oz.

      Note, per that book by Dan Erlewine (which I’d recommend highly, named above): Lighter, brighter authentic tone was said to be the result of someone replacing their Les Paul tuners with new Kluson-style tuners, rather than the heavier Grover Rotomatics that someone else had replaced the originals with.

      Seems the info is hinting at all guitars though, Strats included, the lighter the tuners, the lighter, brighter the sound, the heavier the tuner, the darker… so, depending on what sound is sought by the owner, hopefully the above weights of popular tuners and relative info I came across will be of help.

      In replacing tuners, the height of the tuning post, and hole, can affect the string angle. Generally more angle seems desireable, but then again, that can affect whammy bar with the strings being possibly more apt to hang up on the nut, depending on what type nut.

      I have some tuners (on another guitar) I’m thinking of replacing mine with, but think their lower post height would create too big a string angle from the nut, creating drag when whammying (standard mexi strat nut), so might just try to get a ferrul to replace my missing one, or perhaps replace the tuners with higher posts than what I happen to have, not sure what brand, but seems a light-weight to keep the chime.

      Don’t mean to be so verbose, sorry, but at least I paragraphed, okay glw? Thanks again much, 1bassleft, and others. Hope this info is useful to some of you. ~GitBoxKurt

    • #76188
      1bassleft
      Participant

      😆 , I like it. I’ll remember it for a punctuationally-challenged chum of mine.

    • #65144
      mrblanche
      Member

      I once took a French Composition class, and the professor complained all the time about a student who never put in paragraph breaks. He finally took to calling him Monsieur Pavee…Mr. Paving Stone! One big block of print.

    • #76145
      1bassleft
      Participant

      To answer your Q, Kurt, there is no danger of your tuners being vintage. You can either look for a ferrule (without it, tuning on that string will be murder) or replace the set. From a sound point of view, the pups and jack/pots could be replaced but, from a feel/reliability POV, the tuners are often the biggest stinkers in a cut-price guitar.

    • #65160
      lee_UK
      Participant

      well they have to justify the $800 difference between the US and the Mex, so there it is… rough fret ends.
      BTW you dont get rough fret ends on a Jap model, all you get is pure perfection.

    • #76141
      mrblanche
      Member

      In looking at US and Mexican strats recently, one difference I saw was the finish on the ends of the frets. The Mexican models were much rougher.

    • #76138
      glw
      Participant

      Ouch!

      Can we have some paragraph breaks please? A great big block of text like that is virtually unreadable.

    • #76134
      GitBoxKurt
      Participant

      This post had been a reply to someone named Rob, regarding his worry about a Fender Stratocaster Phoney?, but the forum had reconstructed, so will post this here, with the remember the Alamo stuff, US vs Mexican Fenders, as this pertains to that, my reply, and my recent purchase of a used Mexi Fender Strat, as follows, for Rob, but for whoever else here, too, Fender Statocaster, American -vs- MexicanRegarding this Re: Mexican Stratocaster Phoney? issue… I recently picked up one of these babies that have the big Fender Logo, made in Mexico, and smaller Squire Series Logo on the rounded part of the headstock. It has a nice rosewood fretboard, does have those cheap looking tuners compared to the other Mexi Strats I’m seeing, but didn’t Strat-Man say that those are maybe vintage tuners? I hope so. I got mine used, and one of the tuning posts is lacking a ferrul or washer so it rubs against the post’s hole, that one. There aren’t nuts on the top of the tuner to tighten it up to the peghead, so maybe they’re cheapo, maybe they’re cool vintage tuners? Mine is red, has a great rosewood neck, staggered pickup pole pieces on all 3, nice whammy bar, works nice. Tone is good, but still experimenting. I think I could get to really liking this guitar once I adjust the pickups, intonation, springs, etc., a bit better, and the volume pot definitely needs replacing, but might try some TV cleaner spray, but think it needs a new vol pot, and possibly tone pots too. Otherwise a sweet axe it could become I think. Neck feels great! Rosewood board on it, and it has a stripe down the back. I was going to try to ‘upgrade’ the tuning pegs, but if Strat-man is right about them maybe being vintage Klusons(?), I’ll maybe just try to track down a ferrul for the one tuner that’s missing that, as heavier tuners can ‘darken’ the tone, and I like the sound this one’s making. It just needs a little work. I pretty much got this axe for a song, a package out the door deal for it and a nice newer Crate amp with chorus and reverb, from a pawn shop, and with a gig bag and the whammy bar too. Just needs the pots and the ferrul and some new strings and I hope to be whaling. I hope the tuners are vintage, not some cheap garbage. I haven’t played it enough to know if they will stay in tune or not. Maybe they’re a little worn too, though. Hope this is of some help, at least letting someone else know that I have a recent purchase that fits into what was considered by someone else as being possibly a Mexican Stratocaster Phoney. Would like to play this through a better amp though, once I get it tinkered with. I think it’s probably many times better than the Chinese Strats though. I can feel that fact, just by holding it, how the neck feels. It’s got some character. I’ve owned other guitars, and still do have others, so I’ve had quality guitars in comparing this one, a USA Strat HM, a Fender Solid Ash Tele Plus w/lace sensors, a SRV strat, a Fender Santa Rosa, Gretch Atkins Axe ’78, Gibson ES-135 w/P100’s, a Les Paul copy (great copy, possibly Cort), Hohner Steinberger copy, Arbor headless Stilleto, and a few more, so you know I’ve had some nice tuners, pickups, necks, sounds, etc., but even with that, this Mexi Strat with the Cheap looking tuners seems like it might be a decent guitar, and not just because I got it cheap either. Mainly hoping the tuners aren’t garbage, but are maybe vintage, and I can get the pots replaced. Otherwise, I like the feel of this axe, and think I’ll actually like it better than my SRV that I sold, and maybe my USA HM strat I sold (though it was a great neck, but I like the chimeyness of this Mexi model, compared to the darker HM sound, though I’d love another HM any day. Hope this is helpful to other Fender Mexican Stratocaster owners out there that have a Large Fender Logo, along with Made in Mexico, but also the smaller logo on the rounded part that says Squire Series, as mine says. Any more ideas on these cheap looking tuners, are they junky or are they vintage, before I replace something I’ll regret later, if they’re actually vintage and just need a ferrul and perhaps some cleaning to stay in tune, etc.? Any input for us with these Fender Stratocasters from Mexico that say Squire Series on a smaller logo on the rounded area, would appreciate any experience or knowledge, just as I’m trying to do for the person who wondered if there’s was a Phoney or what. I kind of like mine, but have some work to do on it, so any wording regarding such a model would be helpful, as I have hope that this can be a decent axe I got recently. Thanks. GitBoxKurt

    • #65151
      glw
      Participant

      Another fan of Japanese Fenders here! I’ve had three over the years.

    • #65142
      lee_UK
      Participant

      I too think that Jap squier and reissues are the steal of the century, the early 80’s JV strats were in a league of their own, attention to detail is astonishing, i know so many Strat players that play nothing else.

      You made some very interesting points though. Are shims very common in US made strats?

    • #76170
      1bassleft
      Participant

      Good points, here, particularly once the CNC routers are brought in. With CNC, it doesn’t matter whether the button-presser is in Baja, Fullerton or Asia. It then comes down to QC, components and the bean-counters.

      I’ve seen some US 70s Fenders with silly-money prices and neck-body joins that are a mile out. HST, you have to watch out for “swimming pool” pup routs, rubbish poplar bodies and cheap electrics on later models. Still, a decent “foreign” Foreign Fender takes a soldering iron and a few $ of CTS and Switchcraft to be brought up to spec. Even with a pupgrade, it still makes sense.

      Personally, I think the Japanese-made Fenders are the steals. In the US, there are bargains to be had. A 90s Jap Squier Precision didn’t even make $150, and that has to be worth having.

    • #65150
      docrichards
      Participant

      The difference between the American Standard Series Strats that currently go for around $950 through the discount distributors and the Mexican Standards, which are currently selling for around $400 are related more to cost of labor than actual construction issues. Both are made from CNC cut parts, both are assembled pretty much on the line.

      If you’re looking for the perfectly fit neck, your looking for a Fender model that was assembled by a luthier in the custom shop. That’s where the difference actually exists, and you will pay for the luthier’s time to the tune of $2000+ for the hand fit neck joint. That’s the economics of guitar building.

      Doc

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