Home Forums Guitar Discussion Guitar Bassleft is a big bollock

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  • #21903
    1bassleft
    Participant

    Welcome to the thread where disagreeing with another POV doesn’t hijack some other poor burger’s innocent topic. I was going to call it ‘dictionary corner’ but decided to land a punch on my own chin instead, to get the ball rolling.

    Wasp, there is an irony to this unfolding tragedy. For starters, I was not being in the least sarcastic about you or anyone else. I intended that, for a competent player, FX are a handy tool in replicating tone/sound, without having to buy half the world’s ‘vintage’ amps. However, I would not like a reader to think that a stompbox (modelling or otherwise) is some panacea that “true bypasses” actually bothering to learn a bit of technique.

    Either our wires got crossed (I freely admit my writing style is a bit abstract) or perhaps you do disagree; that the pedals hold the key. If the latter is the case; fine, that is your POV and I don’t happen to subscribe to it. Not really worth getting into ‘chatroom’ yah-boos about, just a diff of op.

    Secondly, you make an interesting point that many of the “15 best guitarists” quoted had little to go on. I was thinking the same. They might be lucky to have had a Dansette in the bedroom, yet they developed an innovative ‘classic’ style of their own. For my own tastes, I prefer current players to do the same. Again, it’s just a POV. If you disagree, that’s fine but you don’t have to reach for the red button about it.

    BTW, quote Lee’s best bits. “I played all four notes that BB King has played…” 😆

Viewing 54 reply threads
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    • #67836
      1bassleft
      Participant

      I had the misfortune to have to read it, though. Pointing out an errant apostrophe as a “ha, one up to me” item is the text equivalent of wearing a shirt-pocket protector. Sometimes, we talk about guitars on the forum 🙂 . I read enough about grammar in the daytime, thanks.

      Seeing as this thread is mostly a panfight with a sub-plot of fingertips and pedals, it’s a good place to discuss the disagreement arising from MJW’s thread. I plan to delete my last post there as you have seen it:

      [quote]Please, Wasp, resist the temptation to chase other threads and pointscore. It is called “hijacking”, and a tad rude to the thread originator.[/quote]

      and you replied:

      [quote]The advice had been acknowledged as complete. I did not step in ‘mid-thread’, so there was no aspect of rudeness implemented. So I do not acknowledge your point

      It is strange and extremely contradictory that someone can pad a thread out for days with information that throws easily influenced people into turmoil – you yourself replied to one such person. This is then laughed off as a joke – I make a joke and it is deleted – yes DELETED.

      I stand by my double standards comment.[/quote]

      I can’t help you about the specifics as I didn’t wield the scissors. By all means complain about your treatment, and others can chip in and/or make their minds up. Still, I don’t think you (or anyone else) has the insight to decide a thread has run its course and can now be safely turned into a “second front”. What if MJW wanted to come back with a follow up, or someone else felt like posting “I’ve got a new, Squire starter pack and they’re great” but, suddenly, there’s a heap of jibes and counter-jibes to wade through?

      Please try the alternatives. This thread is one, a PM is another, starting a new topic, “Mods here are rubbish” is a third. Why plant the size 11s in a running subject? I can’t speak for anybody else, but I personally get much more pleasure out of reading and posting constructive comments and advice. I take less pleasure out of being told I’m dead flat wrong 🙂 , but I can be DFW, and I can cope with that. Believe it or not, I don’t live for this kind of stuff. The temptation to point a Howitzer at the entire ‘bollock’ thread is sometimes unbearable 😆

    • #67830
      youngwasp
      Member

      No YOU didnt, but my comment was not directed at you.

    • #67845
      1bassleft
      Participant

      Jeez Louise 🙄 . Wasp, did I care that you didn’t make proper use of the subjunctive and have made the wrong choice of homophone in previous postings 😯 ❓ No, I didn’t; it’s the least of their problems. Besides, there’s the risk of coming off like a smug, pretentious buttock going down that route. Glasshouses, stones, big bill from glazier.

    • #67837
      youngwasp
      Member

      [quote=”lee_UK”]i rest my case, at last he see’s sense.[/quote]

      There’s no apostrophe in ‘sees’.

      If you try a putdown, please try to get it completely right as it loses impact.

    • #67839
      lee_UK
      Participant

      i rest my case, at last he see’s sense.

    • #67838
      youngwasp
      Member

      No way, I was joking all along and really agree with Lee’s 90/10 rule.

      It is unquestionable that tone comes 90% from the fingers.

    • #67823
      1bassleft
      Participant

      You got me there. Middle stump. Fair cop, guv. I’m so busy running off to get a Line 6 Tone Core, I might just be silent on this thread. Let me be the first to say that this is because I have been beaten by a better man. Buy more pedals, buy more pedals, buy more pedals. I absolutely cave in. I take everything back. I bow in your presence.

      🙄 I think that rolls it up.

    • #67835
      youngwasp
      Member

      Everything in life is based upon perspective and from this our own individual maps of the world are shaped. I fully appreciate that those things that challenge those beliefs are difficult to deal with on many levels, hence you ignore every salient point, every question, in fact everything that could have ended this weeks ago. I realize the questions and points I raise are difficult to tackle head on, therefore all the sidestepping and stonewalling.
      This is the complete reverse of my own approach whereby I deal with your responses, quote you directly and supply answers – you seem to have trouble with that and I can only surmise that people don’t like their output being deconstructed so methodically.

      I ‘go on and on’ only because you refuse to tackle my core point with any type of thought-through response. Not once have you or any of your cohorts attempted to supply any corroborating evidence to support your view – – you have intimate knowledge of the way audiences think and they perceive riffs as a blur – so case proven?? I must conclude my point about the strobe light hit home as this has been ignored.

      You believe my posts are intended to highlight my being cleverer? Isn’t that usually the result of someone being compromised into feeling that? This is just me being me – but if that is what you feel, thanks you for the compliment but it is unnecessary.

      You broached the subject about dual personality by saying you weren’t going to mention it BY mentioning it! You completely ignore the point I made about IP addresses – allowing people to carry on believing I could be FB – if you believe that is justified and not worthy of a response, then okay. I understand your need to help defuse any bad press in Lee’s direction from a third party.

      You are ones who apparently need lots of brow soothing for literary indiscretions. If you need apologies to help readjust your internal state, then I apologise profusely to everyone concerned, being called a ‘twit’ must indeed wound the ego.

      As for peddling my bike, you have had countless opportunites to deflate the tyres, but you seem more intent on handing me a pump.

      You finish by asking me not to ignore ‘the point’ where your entire two posts have done that very thing.

      I wonder why the new Line 6 pedals are called ‘Tone Core’?

    • #67847
      1bassleft
      Participant

      And one more try. If I caused you offence, let me say I have an anal streak that could handle the sewage output of NY/NJ. I actually have a favourite 12AX7. And a favourite EL34, and a favourite EL84. It only seems to matter to me; nobody else in the band (never mind the audience) gives a toss. I’m thinking about a noise filter to cut out the sound of my anorak rustling.

      We have a song. The bass line backbones the song. The guitarist is (annoyingly) a decent bass player. The singer is (even more annoyingly) a previous bass player. Both of them had suggestions for the bassline. Not “replace the Svetlanas with Mullards”, or “the 2×10 needs a 1×15” (I’d readily agree to that). No, the suggestion was that I stop hitting some of the notes, and let the fretting fingers play the passing notes.

      They were right, and it was all about a difference in tone. I really can’t say more, I am sure you understand this. Attack, decay, sustain. It’s part of the tone. If you disagree, that’s absolutely fine; but please don’t ignore the point (however badly made) and shoot the messenger; that’s just “chatroom” stuff.

    • #67832
      1bassleft
      Participant

      A sense of humour does form a percentage of a person’s makeup. No need to get rattled; I said I “resisted the temptn” 🙂 . Somebody else (you) once asserted it, and were dead flat wrong. I’m always happy to recheck my posts, and apol for any errors. Wasp, you never seem to.

      You just go on and on and on. For the sake of hardworking police officers looking for a nice rest in the canteen without “totalanal” wandering in, I’m quite happy to do them a service. Keep ignoring any conciliatory gestures; keep homing in on minor disagreements and turning them into “I happen to be cleverer than you” posts. Best of all, keep saying that a fretting hand only cuts the frequency and nothing more.

      The tragedy is, I’m convinced you’re a better player than that. But, if you want to peddle it – it’s your bike.

    • #67855
      youngwasp
      Member

      There are a number of issues;

      Firstly, I too believe Lee never intended to ‘fool’ anyone. No, that was not his intention and certainly not what I said. The wonderful aspect of this type of forum is that you can quote exactly hence, – ‘Can I just add one thing? the % thing was a joke’. This was no attempt at fooling anyone, it was simply an attempt at shedding the responsibility of points made thus far, a ‘No, I never meant any of it, it was all made up’ stance.
      Apparently 50% of the readers believe it though – just where do these random percentages come from?

      So, to the tone question;
      This becomes increasingly more bizarre with each reply, it rollercoasters along with all the unexpected twists and turns of an episode of 24. It would be really useful to try to focus on specifics though, avoid generalisations and instead of simple statements that say nothing other than add colour, be very specific as to what is meant. I keep asking for detail as to WHAT tonal changes are evoked by the fingers but so far have simply had a list of techniques.

      Because of the nature of what I do for a living, making assumptions is not something I can comfortably do. However, in this case – am I correct in assuming that by ‘tone’ you don’t simply mean the raising and lowering of notes? For if there was no altering of pitch, there would be no discernible tune/melody, so of course I fully accept that the fingers alter the pitch but that is all.

      What do you mean by the word ‘tone’?

      Pressing on. You give the account of a riff being heard by the audience, – ‘A lick or a riff is a blur – an amalgam – that is taken as a whole’ – BUT once the next note is played on the same string, there are no sonic artefacts left from the previous note, hence no cumulative effect whatsoever. What you use as an example is the equivalent of someone describing a strobe as a continuous light source just because they cannot differentiate the off/on/off/on/off.
      A riff is still a series of individual notes regardless of how you attempt to muddy the water. If that is the basis of your cumulative ‘proof’, then I am absolutely convinced that you are unable to differentiate technique from tone or really have no clue how to explain what you mean. I keep asking time after time for specifics but now find ourselves transported front of stage for a lesson in ‘apparent sonic association’.

      Your words, ‘So, if a player adjusts the level of attack
      and/or sustain using left and right hands, then that affects the tone’. I would say that sustain is the ‘length’ of time a note sounds and not its tonal characteristics.

      I understand the words, but again there is no detail to qualify the statement, WHAT EXACTLY are the tonal changes?

      You say, ‘I’m not sure I agree with your premise that a fretting hand
      Only does (x) and…. A decent player can adjust their touch almost without thinking’. Well yes, I agree I alter my touch to produce a specific note, but I am unable to visualise the reference as it leads the reader nowhere.

      Be specific with what you imply – what EXACTLY can you do with your
      hands to do anything other than alter the length of a string?

      We seem to be back in the same position again, the onus of
      Substantiation being with those who believe the fingers influence tone. It is not enough to simply say ‘I believe they do’, as is being done continually. I genuinely believe you now don’t know what to believe.

      A final word about the double standards at work here.

      I see 1bassleft is thinking along the same lines as I originally did – someone adopting a dual personality. I considered it strange that someone would jump in at a point with virtually no track record of posts and documented my suspicions = for anyone can log in, type, log out, then log in as someone else, type a response, then log out.
      Because they don’t have the same IP address, they cannot be one and the same, yet strange how the element of doubt is left open as no-one jumps to confirm that in my case?

      Yes bass, probably best not mention that.

    • #67831
      1bassleft
      Participant

      Wasp, I think I was the first to mis-read your “occupation” post and needle it; so let me be the first to apol. In fact, I’d like to get everything straight so we can discuss POVs without point-scoring (we’ve all been guilty of that). Non-confrontation time…

      I’m not sure I agree with your premise that a fretting hand only does (x) and the plucking hand only does (y) and these are both purely technique; whereas equipment handles the tone. A compressor, or an envelope filter, adjusts the attack, sustain and decay of the input. As I often tell the schoolkids, even computers are thick (stupid, dumb), never mind a bunch of resistors. They can only do that task, to that note, until told to do otherwise. A decent player (and I’ll bet my shirt I come third behind Wasp and Lee on that score) can adjust their touch almost without thinking.

      So now the nub of the disagreement; does this affect tone? I have to say it does, especially to Joe Audience. Without writing a lengthy, there are a ton of instances – letting the fretting hand play the note maybe better than plucking with the other hand. And, for those about to pluck, the choice of a pick or a fingertip or a thumb at any moment changes “the tone”. Deciding on the 10th fret of the E string is diferent to playing the open D.

      Those are human decisions, and they change the tone more than most guitar swaps, if we’re honest.

      So, if a player adjusts the level of attack and/or sustain using left and right hands, then that affects the tone, IMO. I’m not trying to “prove” Lee’s percentages joke, but it is cumulative. Sorry Wasp, I think you’re wrong. I always look at it from the perspective of Joe Audience – I even talk to them 😯 . A lick or a riff is a blur – an amalgam – that is taken as a whole. I have never (NEVER) known a gig goer to de-construct a song note-by-note. They just don’t do it. Neither do I, sat at home with the CD player. Very few players have stuck religiously by their gear over (say) a decade, but I don’t instantly recognize the switches.

    • #67864
      1bassleft
      Participant

      I’ll resist the temptn to ask if FB is YW under a pseudonym 🙂 . Gets complicated if complete dicks vie with private dicks.

      I could discuss the “cumulative” thing, but not if it just results in slanging-match.

    • #67821
      Michael
      Participant

      I don’t think Lee intended to “fool” anyone. He certainly encouraged a good debate. I can’t speak for him 😀 We are all entitled to our own opinions and by no means is anyone forced to believe them. Whilst Wasp makes a very good argument in his favour, not everyone will agree. That’s the wonderful thing about the net, so many diverse lines of thought and even than you may not agree with any of them.

      Lets not enter too much into forum politics I say. I think the more differing opinions and types of characters (mods included) we have here the better.

    • #67844
      1bassleft
      Participant

      I think it’s been discussed. Plenty here to look through. Name-calling = boring. Thread-Coventry.

    • #67816
      fenderbender
      Participant

      Just read the latest post by Wasp. Must admit I hadn’t looked at like he has, but it makes a lot of sense. I was confused by what had been posted by leeuk and can’t see what he had to gain by trying to confuse people. Dunno if he thinks he is doing a good job, one post tries to help people, then another screw them up. He is a moderator to and has openly had a go at ridiculing wasp with a stupid post, is this how moderators should behave. Lee has come across as a complete dick.

      Monkey Boy, yea nice.

    • #67820
      youngwasp
      Member

      Following a week of night duty, (plus two long mornings in court), then four days away in Cornwall, I have only just sat in front of my domestic server and even thought about seeing how this had all panned out.
      I guess I didn’t make it clear that my job severely restricts my access, let alone desire, to visit websites. Stating my occupation had nothing to do with gaining respect, merely that I work shifts and I would not be around much once back at work, so posts designed to ‘draw’ me out where simply redundant.

      So everything was all a big joke? Well of course we all know that it certainly wasn’t a joke, even poor Michael backs this up succinctly. He says, ‘Opinions are divided straight up the middle… and I’m thinkin’ it’s gonna stay that way’. Aren’t jokes supposed to be made up? If it is a joke then how can Michael believe half the people accept Lee’s 90/10 claim as true!

      We all know it was no joke, Lee spent ages hedging before responding, no-one sprang to his defence or offered up supporting evidence. He finally cobbled together a load of techniques and made up figures believing that by adding this all together would somehow prove himself right. Even those musical passages that did not include a single hammer-on, the reader was asked to accept would be included in the math. Lee asked for my concise response, this I supplied pointing out that the effect of each technique was not cumulative and Monkey Boy was nuked in one hit!
      Realising his water tight deliberations were simply a colander, he tried to convince everyone that it was all a joke and lots of masonic back slapping and rank closing ensued intended to minimise embarrassment.
      It is a great shame that this latter act was forced to arise as it greatly compromised everyone handcuffed to Lee’s bedpost by association.

      I accept you know a lot about your subject Lee, but we all make mistakes and all you have succeeded in doing is confusing people, extremely evident by the above posts. You are the literary equivalent of Spinal Tap, someone posts something and you must take things not to ‘one louder’, but ‘one better’. It is the way you are, the way you operate, we are all different and I accept that. However this environment is very useful for those who want to increase their knowledge, have an interesting debate or simply shoot the breeze, BUT the moment you try covering a mistake that everyone can clearly see is incorrect (no supporting evidence by one person/a site address), your credibility plummets.

      For those who are still confused;

      A guitarist’s fretting hand can only alter the pitch of note by bending or shortening the strings. This is technique and not tone.
      A guitarist’s picking hand can only influence the loudness of a note by how much attack they implement, with pick, fingers (or sixpenny piece). This is technique not tone.
      Tone is solely the domain of what equipment you use, the guitar, the amp, the cables, the strings, the pickups and you will not sound like Gary Moore, BB King, Dave Gilmour or whoever, until;

      a) You own their identical rig
      b) You play in a 100% identical style

      This post is not intended to be inflammatory or provocative. I neither have any intention of shouting to the rest of the forum in upper case that Lee is unable to admit his mistakes by opening a thread with that in the title. I accept you know a lot about your subject Lee, but we all make mistakes and all you have succeeded in doing is confusing people, extremely evident by the above posts.
      You are indeed the literary equivalent of Spinal Tap, someone posts something and you must take things not to ‘one louder’, but ‘one better’. It is the way you are, the way you operate, we are all different and I accept that. However this environment is very useful for those who want to increase their knowledge, have an interesting debate or simply shoot the breeze, BUT the moment you try covering a mistake that everyone can clearly see is incorrect, your credibility plummets.

      Try gaining some humility, you will be a lot better person for it.

    • #67865
      1bassleft
      Participant

      FB, I don’t blame you 🙂 . You’re right about Lee’s % gobbledeegook; it was a wind-up because Wasp had a “definite” view about %s. Lee’s last post may have been to coax Wasp out again. Please don’t, Lee – those paragraphs of his hurt my head too.

      FWIW, I think FX pedals and modellers are useful and dandy. In all of that stuff, Wasp pointed out how a unit allows him to switch quickly to good emulations of an acoustic, Dobro, Tele, whatever without having to swap guitars. He’s perfectly right, of course. They’re getting good now – a fretted bass can be made reasonably fretless sounding, for instance.

      What they do not do (and I can’t see why Wasp smugged anyone who mentioned this) is make you an “instant” replica of the big-name player. Learning about the style of the player comes in. As I’ve said before, nobody in the audience nods sagely and says “That guy plays like a plonker but he’s got that JTM45 into a 4×12 loaded with Celestion Greenbacks tone spot on!” It just doesn’t happen.

      Unfortunately, the “Clapton plays Reeling in the Years” link is now dead. Pity, it was a great example. If any player here could help me out with their fab technique and ability to post up a mp3, try this one 8)

      Play “RitY” in the style of Gary Moore’s “Parisienne Walkways”. There are two ways of doing it. (1) Step on a “Gary Moore tone pedal” and just play RitY. (2) Imagine Gary’s just been yanked out of the studio to help out the Dans, and play it his way.

      Now let 10,000 people listen to it and I guarantee that 9,999 will think version (2) sounds like Gary Moore auditioning for Steely Dan. I know it proves nothing about TONE (wasp), but it does prove something about normal human hearing.

      If Keef plays “Satisfaction” etc on his usual Tele these days, that was definitely nothing like the guitar he used back then. Nobody’s asking for their money back at the gig.

    • #67828
      Michael
      Participant

      “You want the truth? You can’t handle the truth!”

      Opinions are devided straight up the middle… and I’m thinkin’ it’s gonna stay that way.

    • #67826
      fenderbender
      Participant

      I’ve only been playing the guitar for about a year and look at lots of sites to find stuff out. I have been following the argument about tone and playing but am even more confused than when it started. The wasp person kept asking for lee to give details about what he meant and after a while he did, but even I could see that lee had just added all the numbers together and it was load of rubbish. The lee person then said it was all just a joke but now he says it is all true and everyone agrees with him. Could someone please explain exactly what the truth is, this is messing with my head.

    • #67822
      1bassleft
      Participant

      And I’m actually Graham Chapman, so “Stop that, it’s silly!”

      Looks like we can wind this diversion-thread up. I’m quite tempted to go back to virtualtoad’s original thread (although Ryan must have long since given up looking in). Toad asked about trends and ops on pedals and FX, and I have some. Ironically, Wasp had a listenable POV, too – but the spatter-gun “I notice a slight disagreement, so I shall patronize and insult you” technique kindof spoilt it.

      Oops, before he posts in – I’d better agree that his technique was only 10% of the problem, and the tone of his posts caused 90% of the offence 😉

      See you all on the other thread(s),
      Bass 🙂

      postscript: Another forum, another thread. A rapper called “MC Spice” sampled (legally pinched) a piece of “Tears in Heaven” and got himself quoted saying something like “I’ve been into EC since he started out in the 70s with Steely Dan”
      😯 I kid you not, he said that. Anyhoo, while we chortled about it, somebody posted up a .wav pastiche of EC playing “Reeling in the Years”. It’s brilliant, must link it sometime. WRT Wasp, it took more than a pedal. Anyfule could’ve done the RitY riff with a “Bluesbreaker” stomp, but this one had that s-l-o-w hand that was pure EC, and all the funnier for it.
      No partic point, but just wanted to mention it.

    • #67860
      lee_UK
      Participant

      And i can confirm that i am Eric Clapton !! i have been stringing everybody along (no pun intended) from my Surrey England Mansion, i now feel i can reveal myself and i can say that what my alter ego lee_uk was saying about the 10-90 rule is in fact correct, and only a damn fool would beleive that the intro to ‘Layla’ was played on a Banjo, everybody knows it was a Ukelele, and it was only my 90% tonal finger technique that made it sound like a Vintage Strat ™ played through a Fender Bassman ™, and so i stick 2 fingers up to the rosser (policeman) known as Youngwasp (who’s only technique involves right hand wrist action), and applaud all ‘Yes’ voters to the 10-90 rule…. 1bassleft and rayc.
      Good on ya boyzzzz.

    • #67825
      Michael
      Participant

      I can confirm that 1bl and rayc are different people. And despite 1bl’s self confessed love with C.S.I, I don’t think he’s using his elite hacker skills to route IP’s through a Russian space station solely for the purpose of fooling us. But hey… you never do know what lengths some people will go to when it comes to defending eric claptons tone. never 😈

    • #67841
      lee_UK
      Participant

      Wasp will probably come back with untampered-with evidence from 15 independent websites, from 6 countries over 3 continents that agree with him, so he must be right, after all it’s on the those URL’s, it must be true …GUILTY 😥

    • #67840
      1bassleft
      Participant

      Am I glad to hear that 😀 ! Seeing as we’ve discussed other things, Michael, I was wondering if Wasp was 90% right and I’d actually been talking to myself.

      If I were (ludicrous suggestion) to invent an alter-ego just for Wasp, I’d have gone for “1RightGit” and amused myself watching him agree with my 100% agreements with him.

      I did actually understand the ‘banjo’ joke, and I take your point (made me 😆 , too). So much for my “Layla” theory 🙂

    • #67862
      rayc
      Participant

      BTW — My name is actually Michael and I am from Boston Mass. The “rayc” screen name is one that I took from a card game and is actually the first name of a character (rayc rather than Ray C.). I am not now, nor have I ever been, 1bassleft.

    • #67824
      lee_UK
      Participant

      Maybe the moderator should step in to reassure Mr. plod that ray and Bass are in fact 2 different people, Wasps 90-10 argument is gradualy running out of steam, the end of the road is approaching fast, he has tried varioust tactics including the old quote quote and quote again to try and keep this thread alive, but all he has done is to back himself into a very small corner and send us all to sleep, and then trys to gain respect by giving us his long service in the plod quote, if this is what the police does to you, all i can say is thank god im a high court judge! 😆

    • #67859
      1bassleft
      Participant

      “RayC = 1Bassleft”

      Can I just say, Wasp, you make a lousy f***ing copper? Try checkng the previous posts of Ray and myself. You have now made yourself a total turd. God knows how you scraped 29 years service. Sorry, I have just lost patience with this “detective” refugee from the West Midlands, SPG, 159mph “testing his Vectra” always-in-the-right nark.

      “You can’t get better than a cop’s Kwik Fit-Up”

    • #67827
      rayc
      Participant

      Nope. I haven’t owned a bass in over 30 years and I don’t have one left. I don’t have a banjo either.

    • #67843
      youngwasp
      Member

      [quote=”rayc”]I couldn’t resist the jibe. I don’t see what you were getting all worked up about. If you are right, then what difference does it make if someone disagrees? If his arguments are weak or non-existant, then all the better for your side. It seems to me that you wanted to hear someone say “uncle.”

      I think it is silly to apply percentages to this kind of stuff. What you are calling ‘tone’ is something separate and distinct in my mind from technique and style. It is what one looks for when choosing and configuring equipment. So, I think I agree with you, to some extent. However, I also think that technique and style contribute as much or more to the overall sound. I think that one is more likely to sound like Clapton if one plays with similar technique and style on much different equipment (but not a banjo) than one is if he plays the exact same setup without the technique and style. I can’t put a percentage to it.[/quote]

      From your join date, I’m more inclined to believe you are 1bassleft, who, not wishing to compromise his good relationship with Lee by expressing his real opinion, has simply joined under another name.

    • #67850
      rayc
      Participant

      I couldn’t resist the jibe. I don’t see what you were getting all worked up about. If you are right, then what difference does it make if someone disagrees? If his arguments are weak or non-existant, then all the better for your side. It seems to me that you wanted to hear someone say “uncle.”

      I think it is silly to apply percentages to this kind of stuff. What you are calling ‘tone’ is something separate and distinct in my mind from technique and style. It is what one looks for when choosing and configuring equipment. So, I think I agree with you, to some extent. However, I also think that technique and style contribute as much or more to the overall sound. I think that one is more likely to sound like Clapton if one plays with similar technique and style on much different equipment (but not a banjo) than one is if he plays the exact same setup without the technique and style. I can’t put a percentage to it.

    • #67712
      youngwasp
      Member

      [quote=”rayc”]I’ve seen five string banjos.

      rayc[/quote]

      Me too, I didn’t want to confuse you.

    • #67751
      rayc
      Participant

      I’ve seen five string banjos.

      rayc

    • #67747
      youngwasp
      Member

      [quote=”rayc”]Oh the “twit” was an insult? I thought it was a signature.

      Well I have to get back to playing Layla on my sister in law’s banjo. Sounds just like Clapton (would sound if he was me and playing a banjo).[/quote]

      Yes, I can appreciate how you would get confused easily. Banjo players can’t work with more than four strings.

    • #67706
      rayc
      Participant

      Oh the “twit” was an insult? I thought it was a signature.

      Well I have to get back to playing Layla on my sister in law’s banjo. Sounds just like Clapton (would sound if he was me and playing a banjo).

    • #67722
      youngwasp
      Member

      [quote=”lee_UK”]Can i just add one thing? the % thing was a joke, somebody clearly stole the 9v PP9 from your humour pedal, thats the small brown one you use at the end of the pedal chain marked ‘Anal’ im not a twit, there is no need for insults as i have not insulted you, as bass said technique greatly effects tone, and please dont insult me again. ive just listed some things that effects tone.[/quote]

      Yes Lee, it was a joke.

      90% of the people following this would respect you much more if you simply admitted your, er……miscalculation.

    • #67748
      lee_UK
      Participant

      Can i just add one thing? the % thing was a joke, somebody clearly stole the 9v PP9 from your humour pedal, thats the small brown one you use at the end of the pedal chain marked ‘Anal’ im not a twit, there is no need for insults as i have not insulted you, as bass said technique greatly effects tone, and please dont insult me again. ive just listed some things that effects tone.

    • #67754
      1bassleft
      Participant

      and someone untie Lee from the chair; questioning’s over for now. Tomorrow, the sound of police canteens emptying rapidly. Next year, the world…

    • #67732
      1bassleft
      Participant

      OK, move along people. There’s nothing to see here, move along. 🙂

    • #67757
      youngwasp
      Member

      [quote=”lee_UK”]Its in the fingers youngwasp, and its 90% maybe even more, maybe 95%.
      heres the breakdown

      1. Pick action 12.45%
      2. hammer ons 7.55%
      3. hammer offs 10%
      4. string bending 10%
      5. string muting 10%
      6. palm muting 10%
      7. grinding the strings with the pick 2.5% (not including wrist action)
      7a Trem arm control 7.5%
      8. roll on’s 10%
      9. roll off’s 10%
      10. rocking the 3/5 sway switch backwards and forwards 5%
      11. chorus-flanger, delay, reverb, sustain, and every other effect 5%

      dont forget, please leave the dictionary alone when you reply, and please no 600 word quotes ” “, you will obviously need the calculator, so get tapping and them come back to me with a sharp concise response.[/quote]

      You complete and utter plonker Lee – the things you list above aren’t CUMULATIVE.

      Yes, I agree 100% that a hammer on will influence tone 10%, but that leaves 90% for your equipment. The effect of the hammer on is then not ADDED to that of the palm mute two bars later then the next hammer on. What you’ve typed above has simply endorsed EVERY word I’ve said.

      Twit.

    • #67750
      1bassleft
      Participant

      And look up the definition of “rant”, while you’re at it. OK, one more try:

      There is a “tone” that comes from the mechanicals, of course. You do clearly use the words “hit” and “strike”. Sure, if Famous-Muso’s guitar is lying around plugged in and some nomark comes along and hits or strikes it, the sound will be remarkably similar to FM doing the same thing. Similarly, it’s not beyond the wit of a solderer or PCB maker to change the sound of a Squier/Kustom into a good approximation of a LP/1959 Bassman being struck. If this really is THE point, well… 🙄 That is, as you say, why they’re out there.

      It is not the end of the story, not even (dratted %s) 90% of the story. We don’t get paid to hit and strike guitars, we’re all players here. I’ve lost count of the # of times Lee, myself, others(?) have said (‘conceded’ if it makes you feel better) this. Dial up the patch for “Layla” but play “Brown Eye’d Girl” (or vice versa) and, yes, anybody in the audience will look askance. However, dial up “Layla” and play it hitting-every-note-with-your-plec-at-same-force, plonking the fretting hand around and Joe Audience will down their pints quickly and move on.

      There are vagaries of touch and a number of ways of ringing the note that are way beyond the pedal in real-life playing. With my old Laney Super, I strung a variety of 12A_7s across the preamp and gave top marks to a GE for both bass and (borrowed) guitar. Once the guitarist, a proper player like you lot, had a go I completely changed my mind. The Mullard bettered it (they cost a bomb) but it only showed up with technique applied. And the % (again!) was small, but these things are important if we as players can hear it.

      Finally, speaking of “why don’t players just buy a plank then?” Well, for starters, there’s more to a nice guitar than what it sounds like. That Hondo II purchased in my youth, and that Lee never lets me forget about 😛 ), the tone is the least of its problems. In any case, Richie Blackmore (in his Rainbow days), used to sneak off and swap his Strat for a “Satellite” copy before the ritual smashing of guitar onstage routine. He didn’t use a “Blackmore’s Strat Tone Pedal” to compensate. The audience didn’t suddenly shout “what’s that awful guitar tone?” It was business as usual, but if you were close enough to see the headstock it was good for a snigger.

    • #67764
      youngwasp
      Member

      Having taken two weeks out to oversee the final touches to my new extension on the house, I am back to work tomorrow.

      As a serving police officer of 29 years, I retire in a little over a year at 49 where I hope to spend a lot more time enjoying such pursuits as the last week or so.

      Thanks.

    • #67756
      youngwasp
      Member

      I fully understand your confusion now, you are unable to seperate technique from tone.

      Ok.

    • #67745
      youngwasp
      Member

      How’s does this create tone?

    • #67734
      lee_UK
      Participant

      Its in the fingers youngwasp, and its 90% maybe even more, maybe 95%.
      heres the breakdown

      1. Pick action 12.45%
      2. hammer ons 7.55%
      3. hammer offs 10%
      4. string bending 10%
      5. string muting 10%
      6. palm muting 10%
      7. grinding the strings with the pick 2.5% (not including wrist action)
      7a Trem arm control 7.5%
      8. roll on’s 10%
      9. roll off’s 10%
      10. rocking the 3/5 sway switch backwards and forwards 5%
      11. chorus-flanger, delay, reverb, sustain, and every other effect 5%

      dont forget, please leave the dictionary alone when you reply, and please no 600 word quotes ” “, you will obviously need the calculator, so get tapping and them come back to me with a sharp concise response.

    • #67735
      youngwasp
      Member

      I have made my position as clear as it could possibly be – equipment produces 9/10ths of tone.

      I have viewed perhaps 15 – 20 guitar sites that detail what guitar note is, what constitutes it and how it is achieved. EVERY SINGLE ONE without exception says exactly what I say.

      You continually say otherwise and not once have you even attempted to supply one iota of detail, despite opportunity after opportunity. Like a Christian who ‘believes’ who is pressed to say supply details, no-one comes up with an answer as to what = nothing. ‘It’s all in the fingers’, is the glib response every time.

      I too say that a pedal will NOT make you sound EXACTLY like any named guitarist, it being an approximation given the obvious variations of variables in the chain, guitar, pickups, strings etc etc, of the original.

      What is very common is that you raise a point and when I respond you seem to forget/ignore that you initially raised it;

      Lee said in the other thread;
      ‘And what you fail to understand is, it’s only you me and Bass that are reading this thread,’

      I said;
      ‘Exactly 48 hours ago the views held steady at 153, today, now, at the time of writing = 289.
      The numbers unfortunately disprove your theory. Sorry.’

      Then I am accused of;
      ‘Saying that 300-whatever people have viewed without posting; ergo, they all agree with you – that’s one way of looking at it.’

      Complete pants, I merely pointed out that it clearly was not ‘you me and Bass that are reading this thread’ – in fact the number stands now at 350. I did not say or imply anything about agreement whatsoever, JUST that 100’s of people were viewing the thread.

      My position could not be clearer, I agree that a small percentage of guitar tone is evoked with the fingers in conjunction with the pick and have supplied copious detail, not just based upon my belief system but many others too.
      Your position is clear too. You say one thing based upon a percentage you supplied, i.e. the fingers provide 9x more influence over tone than equipment. I ask you to detail what the fingers do that produce that? Nothing is supplied whatsoever, not one scrap, no tiny morsel of an idea or notion, zippo, zilch, just days of rhetoric, squirming and cries of being bored.

      You now want to ‘…..take it bit by bit.’? You’ve already had the chance to do that in spades.

      Well, quite simply no thanks. You are backed into a corner of your own making and it is up to you to get out of it – and no way is it a case of we simply disagree, I have supplied masses of detail, you have not supplied any.

      Start supplying details of the magical 9x finger power, or you are blethering amongst yourselves.

      The viewers of this entire situation await you to ‘put up, or shut up’ – there is no ‘bit by bit’.

    • #67702
      1bassleft
      Participant

      Farino, you were the “poor geezer” I referred to above. I hope you don’t get your sausages post ‘flamed’ by an “obviously you don’t heat the griddle in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions (www.Iactuallybothertolookthisup.com)” post. Hope not, but it could happen 🙂

    • #67708
      lee_UK
      Participant

      I could never understand the ‘Lean Machine’ George looks a bit of a porker to me, not exactly a lean guy is he? strange choice for a celeb endorsement, or have i overstepped the mark there? he still looks like he packs more of a paunch than a punch, of course he’s still a super guy, and a credit to society…phew. 😯

    • #67724
      Farino
      Participant

      My George Foreman grill certainly doesn’t give me the same perfectly grilled sausages as he gets. It’s definitely 1/10th grill and 9/10ths ability with grills.

      The same works for tones Ywasp. Or maybe you are both at the wrong ends of the scale and it would be fairer to even it to half and half, with slightly more in Lee’s favor.

      There really isn’t anymore to add, it’s just peoples opinions. Could you match Clapton’s tone with little more than an effect, I highly doubt it. More than 9/10ths of the clapto-super-box.

    • #67753
      lee_UK
      Participant

      Its all in the fingers Bass, not the racquet ! 😆

    • #67749
      1bassleft
      Participant

      Crikey, Lee 😆 . If you remember me muttering that an 11 y.o. beat me at tennis, I’ll have to be more careful about what I say 😳 . I doubt if it was technique, though. The git probably had a better racquet.

    • #67760
      lee_UK
      Participant

      im sure most of those 300 viewed through morbid curiosity, motorway rubberneckers, i dont feel this is very constructive either, we both have different points of views on the subject and always will, you believe you can acheive the best part of guitar hero tone through a pedal and i dont, this could go on longer than a womens UK no1 vs womens UK no2 rally on a first serve at wimbledon.
      More balls please bass.
      oh no sorry, that 11yr old prodigy saw you off! 😆 i still dont know how or why you owned up to that one, and i still have a quiet chuckle every now and then.

    • #67759
      1bassleft
      Participant

      I was thinking along similar lines to Lee. I don’t doubt that both he and I could see that you’d played your dues and, again, both he and I use and appreciate pedals. However, there are those who think that spending money and stepping on the switch will “make them just like (insert famous player)”. A lot of overblown advertizing drivel can be the cause of this, resulting in disappointment and an expensive piece of kit lying in the cupboard. With some digital cure-alls, the depreciation can be alarming. In those circs, there’s nothing wrong with a “It ain’t as simple as that” post.

      I don’t get hung up on %s myself, but if we can discuss the merits of this vs that sensibly, a little bit of decorum would be nice. I suggested the switch because it had become a hijack of a slightly different topic. Also, this is “Guitarsite forum”, not a chatroom for “Ha! You answered me back, that means you’re provocative. Ha! You’re staying silent, that proves I’ve won and EVERYONE can see that” stuff.

      If I may say so, and call it a smokescreen if you like, it really is very boring to read. Saying that 300-whatever people have viewed without posting; ergo, they all agree with you – that’s one way of looking at it. Another (and trust me, it is more likely) is that 300-odd have clicked, looked, rolled-eyes, and left. The one poor geezer who did chime in got yet another patronizing blast and (worse) a C+P of what he’d just trawled through. It’s unpleasant, and counter-productive. I’m quite happy to put forward my “Layla” POV, in a straightforward, non-combative way. Too much to ask that differing ops are in the same vein?

    • #67743
      lee_UK
      Participant

      i still stick by my 10-90 statement, the fact i was trying to state is this, there are a lot of younger players who have come on here over the years wanting to part with cash to sound like their guitar heroes, they wanted to know what kind of cables they use what kind of effects, and if those effects have the geranium resistors or not, OK so you need a reverb unit and a delay to sound like Will Sargent but more importantly you also need to know how he plays Villiers terrace (probably the best song ever written) with a staccato effect using pick tecnique, does anybody realy think that if you get hold of a 68′ strat and a marshall head and a fuzz face you can realy sound like Hendrix? lets say for instance you take a classicaly trained musician and give him hendrix’s rig, and then say now play purple haze all the way through from start to finnish, theres the sheet music, get on with it., how would that sound? probably 10% hendrix 90% mush. 90% of a players TONE is in the fingers, for that you need to be able to mimick his technique to get his tone, but i dont think you need the full Brian may setup to sound like him, 90% his technique.
      The fact you learned in the 60’s would have helped you enourmously, because you probably played a lot of clean to begin with and over the years you developed your technique, effects werent around as much in the 60’s as they are today, i learned to play in 77′ aged 11 after hearing The sex pistols Never mind LP, Steve jones had a fantastic tone, helped my double tracking a blown out fender twin, but it was his fingers and pick attack playing Holidays in the sun, Burt Weedon would have had problems playing it. In 77′ all i had was an accoustic and learned a lot of rock technique on that, my family never had the money to buy effects pedals and our school band made do with what we had, but we could still sound like The Jam even though by that time we had 3 very cheap electric guitars and 6 watt practice amps, a very very cheap drum kit and no microphone, we sounded like them because we studied their technique and not their backline. And i wasnt having a go at you for using a GT6, as i said i had a GT5 a few years ago, and now own a ME50, its a great box for what it is, so im not anti-effects, but i stick by my ‘play like him to sound like him’ statement, the old 10-90 rule.
      Your last post on the original thread was good and readable, so in answer to this please dont overdo the quotes ” ” , especialy when the quote is just a single post away, OK so lets discuss the 10-90 staement.

    • #67720
      youngwasp
      Member

      It has never been my intention to suggest or accept that using pedals/effects negates having to learn to play. I picked up my first guitar in 1964 and never even used a pedal until the mid 90’s.

      As I have clearly explained in the other thread, my main primary focus for using the GT6 is simply because I physically cannot switch instruments fast enough – I need to have access to an acoustic sound in less than a second, a stomp on the appropriate patch and I do. It isn’t about creating a wall of dirt to hide behind, gone is any gain, reverb, we are in the ‘clean’ zone – the musical equivalent of The Full Monty – all blemishes are apparent. I appreciate some players hide behind effects, but using them has made me a more rounded and competent player.

      I am at a loss to identify the reasons anyone is against effects in the hands (or rather feet) of an experienced player? Hendrix – perhaps the most revered and worshiped player of my generation (and your’s) – the key to his sound was effects.

      Effects complete the spectrum for me, no song is now out of bounds, there are no cadence faltering breaks whilst equipment is fumbled with, one song finishes, the next starts. They opened the door allowing me to play Ralph McTell, Sabbath, Echo and the Bunnymen, one Willie Nelson song and Muse all in the same set – WITHOUT swapping my guitar;

      We know exactly what is on the table as far as what has transpired thus far, there have been well over 300 views of the ‘other’ thread, yet despite having ample opportunity to counter my view – no specifics have been presented by any one person to ‘disprove’ my view.

      Lee tried an exercise in damage limitation with the old ‘bored’ ruse asking if we could simply kick the thread into touch? Yet he carries on responding with paragraphs of text saying that we are going over the same old ground, when in fact he refuses to even attempt an answer.

      To say that by some magical and mystical intervention, guitarists are able to evoke 9x the influence with their fingers over their rig is an astonishing view given that Lee responds to other subjects with some authority – for this is exactly what we are asked to accept. My view is that he plucked the percentage from the ether, and he is happy to sit in the hole he dug for himself with those words. Unfortunately the longer he stays in it, the more dirt gets kicked in his face which is unfortunate for he seems to be a decent human being

      In the latest Guitarist magazine in the Santana interview (page 56) – it states;

      Hence Santana’s new tone requires two valve amps, a Boogie and a Dumble, wired in series. “The Dumble gives me the belly tones and the chest tones, which is the tenor saxophone and the Boogie me the head tones which is like a soprano.”

      If the fingers have 9x more influence, then why bother with such equipment, why a PRS, why not a Squier?

      Technique is what you do to manipulate the strings, tone is how those manipulations are interpreted by the equipment’s settings.

      Regards the other poor burger’s (?) thread you mention. Far better to have titled it more precisely – if it is designed to get useful responses about pedal trends, then heading it ‘My First Post’ is a bit self-defeating.

      By the way, self-flagellation is always an excellent defusing tactic. Nice ploy.

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