Understanding CMI guitars and amps

1bassleft · Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:34 am Post subject:

I love the look of that Tele, right down to the 3-saddle bridge. I've been on holiday since your post, but I hope you haven't sold it yet. It oozes character.

MicroSark · Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject:

Apologies if this is the wrong place to post this - this is my first post to this forum.

I own a CMI acoustic 12 string, and I've been looking for details about it's origins and possible value, as I'm thinking of selling it at some point (I think about this at least once a year, but then pick the thing up and play it for a while and change my mind).

I've looked everywhere for details, but this is the only forum or info I can find that seems to know anything about these guitars at all.

The logo is the 'Big C' one, i.e. the Jap import. The guitar is the same shape as a Gibson J200, but with the extended headstock for 12 strings.

I'll try to post some pictures of it when I get chance to take some, but the guitar has all blond wood back and sides with some pretty inlays, slightly darker table, black headstock with the familiar CMI logo n gold with the big C, and silver machine-heads. The bridge is I think rosewood, with a metal saddle-raiser that allows the saddle to be moved up and down with 2 screws.

I bought it from new from Clement Piano's in Nottingham about 1979/1980 at which point it cost about £125.00.

It had an 'accident' about 2 years after I bought it when my then brother-in-law dropped it and broke the headstock. This was repaired by a local luthier, but you can still see the scars if you look hard enough. Must have been a good job though as it's never caused any problems since.

It has a gorgeous tone - deep and rich, and the lowest action I have ever seen on a 12 string.

If anyone has any idea about it's possible saleability or value I'd really appreciate the advice.

1bassleft · Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:02 am Post subject:

You have come to the right place Very Happy

. As the long-time owner of a CMI amp, I've been trying to make this a place where people can save themselves the info-hunting I had to do, and hopefully add a little more to the pool.

Which you have done. If you bought it new in 1979/80, I think it's among the last of CMI-branded guitars. In 1980, Marshall's exclusive tie-in to Rose-Morris ended after 25 years and, AFAIK, CMI, Park, Narb and Kitchen-Marshall were dropped as brands (although Park resurfaced for those Korean-made, budget tranny amps). The fact that yours is an elongated C logo suggests that this stayed to the end.

Cholula has posted on this thread about his combo amp and also in an amp forum. Until I hear differently, this is what I think happened:

Marshall imported guitars from Japan, starting some point after 1965. I'm now of the op that early British market guitars had the curly "cMi" logo with the star over the "i". To begin with, these were not of amazingly high quality, although there is a transition period where they got better and made a fair resemblance of Fenders and Gibsons etc. Around 1972, Marshall amps ceased to be point-to point (P2P) or, more accurately, tag-board hand-wired and shifted to PCB. Park amps continued to be P2P after this date, maybe up to 1976.

Then, in a brief period, a range of P2P CMI amps came out (+ some trannies) seemingly disappearing off the market in 1977. All Bletchley CMI amps I've seen have the elongated "C" logo. My guess is that they were to use up remaining P2P components (my 1979 Park is PCB) and guitar logos changed in 1976 to match the amps. Those components used up, amps made were either Marshall or Park but the CMI name and logo carried on with the guitars which were now of considerably better quality (I still have no evidence that Fuji-Gen Gakki were making them) until 1980.

Your acoustic is a quality guitar (£125 is a lot for 1979, and I've already mentioned electric CMIs with similarly heavy price tags). Sometimes, on eBay, a CMI will fetch a decent price if the Marshall link is fully explained. Other times, it doesn't work and they struggle to make £100. Personally, I think the Marshall link is less emotive with acoustic guitar players, and there's that headstock damage. It'd be wise to put a £50 reserve on it because it might not make it and it would be a shame to let it go for such a pittance through buyer ignorance.

MicroSark · Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the info.

I think I may just hang on to it. For the sake of 50 to 100 quid, it may as well take up a bit of wall space in the studio. I do still use it every now and again, and the tone and volume are immense.

It's not a guitar I ever play 'live', but it does get used for recordings.

Thanks again.

1bassleft · Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:34 am Post subject:

I have an automatic Fleeb search for CMI. If an acoustic ever pops up I'll let you know so that you can see what it makes.

1bassleft · Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:32 pm Post subject:

Here's a very nice CMI 50W PA that sold on eBay today for £155, not very much compared with the prices Marshall valve PAs fetch. I bid myself, but couldn't keep up with the bids as money is a bit short right now. Ironically, this thread probably helped push its price up. If the winner looks in, say hello and let's have more pics, please Smile

NB, in common with other CMI valve amps, there's no standby switch. A bit of Marshall cost-cutting that's not great for valve life, unfortunately. Still, the Mullards in mine lasted a decade and so have the St Petersburg Svets. That's on a weekly rehearsal/monthlyish gig basis.

myfoot · Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject:

I just acquired an SG System 150 combo the other day and while trying to find out more about it found this site.Near as I can tell the only thing wrong with it is it's missing a knob . It's got a blue denim covering on it , Maestro footswitch and vinyl cover . The gentleman I bought it from apparently bought it new and gigged with it for years.
An acquaintance of mine asked if I wanted to buy an amp for my son and I told him he really didn't need another one. I saw him the other day and asked if it was SS or tube.He said he didn't know so he called the guy .This guys says he doesn't know but it sounds real good. He reaches in and says that he feels tubes up there so I went over and bought it for $100 .
Anyway there isn't a whole lot of information out there on these, but what I can find sounds like these were very good amps. I guess I'd like to know if anyone knows where I can find a knob for this that matches the others.
Like everyone else says "This thing is HEAVY"

1bassleft · Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:30 am Post subject:

Welcome aboard, myfoot. I did put up pics for an eBay listing of an SG-Systems CMI combo made in California but unfortunately the pics link has died. I should have permanently uploaded it to a host site. It had the denim-look cover that you mention. The 150 is a new one on me - does it have a single 15" speaker?

I re-read the reviews on Harmony Central (I guess you've seen them yourself). The SG amps all appear to have a SS preamp section, two power valves (tubes) and a single 12AX7. Some owners think the 12AX7 is for the reverb. I must say, I didn't think so (why suddenly bolt on a valve-driven reverb to a SS preamp?) and I go along with one reviewer who is a bit handy with valve amps. He reckons that the 12AX7 is the phase inverter, driving the two power tubes. This makes more sense, and is a lot like the early MusicMan amps, which had a 12AX7 PI between the SS pre and the power section. Later MM amps missed out the 12AX7 and sound the worse for it.

With yours being so old and relatively unused, I wonder what those power tubes are. If they are the originals (something I've never heard of - 8417s?) then they'll be tricky to replace. It should be possible for a good valve amp tech to replace them with something currently available. So far, I've come across SG-CMIs refitted with 6550s (my preference), EL34s and 6L6s. My only suggestion for obscure amp parts is Angela's. They may just have that knob you're looking for somewhere in their stock.

myfoot · Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:22 am Post subject:

oops Sorry it's a 115 and yes it has the single 15 speaker . I have had contact with someone who told me you could change out the 8417s with 6550 and just bias the new tubes . Is there a link to Angelas? I found a website after googling vintage amp knobs but didn't have a whole lot of luck. BTW the fellow I corresponded with sent me the schematics that Gibson sent him.If anyone wants , I'd be happy to forward them on.

myfoot · Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject:

Took a tube out and it said rca 7409s ,turned it to the other side and sure enough was 8417 stenciled on it

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