Bassleft is a big bollock

fenderbender · Joined: 01 Jun 2005 Posts: 2

Just read the latest post by Wasp. Must admit I hadn’t looked at like he has, but it makes a lot of sense. I was confused by what had been posted by leeuk and can’t see what he had to gain by trying to confuse people. Dunno if he thinks he is doing a good job, one post tries to help people, then another screw them up. He is a moderator to and has openly had a go at ridiculing wasp with a stupid post, is this how moderators should behave. Lee has come across as a complete dick.

Monkey Boy, yea nice.

1bassleft · Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:49 pm Post subject:

I think it's been discussed. Plenty here to look through. Name-calling = boring. Thread-Coventry.

Michael · Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:51 pm Post subject:

I don't think Lee intended to "fool" anyone. He certainly encouraged a good debate. I can't speak for him Very Happy

We are all entitled to our own opinions and by no means is anyone forced to believe them. Whilst Wasp makes a very good argument in his favour, not everyone will agree. That's the wonderful thing about the net, so many diverse lines of thought and even than you may not agree with any of them.

Lets not enter too much into forum politics I say. I think the more differing opinions and types of characters (mods included) we have here the better.

1bassleft · Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:06 am Post subject:

I'll resist the temptn to ask if FB is YW under a pseudonym Smile

. Gets complicated if complete dicks vie with private dicks.

I could discuss the "cumulative" thing, but not if it just results in slanging-match.

1bassleft · Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:15 am Post subject:

Wasp, I think I was the first to mis-read your "occupation" post and needle it; so let me be the first to apol. In fact, I'd like to get everything straight so we can discuss POVs without point-scoring (we've all been guilty of that). Non-confrontation time...

I'm not sure I agree with your premise that a fretting hand only does (x) and the plucking hand only does (y) and these are both purely technique; whereas equipment handles the tone. A compressor, or an envelope filter, adjusts the attack, sustain and decay of the input. As I often tell the schoolkids, even computers are thick (stupid, dumb), never mind a bunch of resistors. They can only do that task, to that note, until told to do otherwise. A decent player (and I'll bet my shirt I come third behind Wasp and Lee on that score) can adjust their touch almost without thinking.

So now the nub of the disagreement; does this affect tone? I have to say it does, especially to Joe Audience. Without writing a lengthy, there are a ton of instances - letting the fretting hand play the note maybe better than plucking with the other hand. And, for those about to pluck, the choice of a pick or a fingertip or a thumb at any moment changes "the tone". Deciding on the 10th fret of the E string is diferent to playing the open D.

Those are human decisions, and they change the tone more than most guitar swaps, if we're honest.

So, if a player adjusts the level of attack and/or sustain using left and right hands, then that affects the tone, IMO. I'm not trying to "prove" Lee's percentages joke, but it is cumulative. Sorry Wasp, I think you're wrong. I always look at it from the perspective of Joe Audience - I even talk to them Shocked

. A lick or a riff is a blur - an amalgam - that is taken as a whole. I have never (NEVER) known a gig goer to de-construct a song note-by-note. They just don't do it. Neither do I, sat at home with the CD player. Very few players have stuck religiously by their gear over (say) a decade, but I don't instantly recognize the switches.

youngwasp · Got Rhythm Joined: 19 May 2005 Posts: 71

There are a number of issues;

Firstly, I too believe Lee never intended to 'fool' anyone. No, that was not his intention and certainly not what I said. The wonderful aspect of this type of forum is that you can quote exactly hence, - 'Can I just add one thing? the % thing was a joke'. This was no attempt at fooling anyone, it was simply an attempt at shedding the responsibility of points made thus far, a 'No, I never meant any of it, it was all made up' stance.
Apparently 50% of the readers believe it though - just where do these random percentages come from?

So, to the tone question;
This becomes increasingly more bizarre with each reply, it rollercoasters along with all the unexpected twists and turns of an episode of 24. It would be really useful to try to focus on specifics though, avoid generalisations and instead of simple statements that say nothing other than add colour, be very specific as to what is meant. I keep asking for detail as to WHAT tonal changes are evoked by the fingers but so far have simply had a list of techniques.

Because of the nature of what I do for a living, making assumptions is not something I can comfortably do. However, in this case - am I correct in assuming that by 'tone' you don't simply mean the raising and lowering of notes? For if there was no altering of pitch, there would be no discernible tune/melody, so of course I fully accept that the fingers alter the pitch but that is all.

What do you mean by the word 'tone'?

Pressing on. You give the account of a riff being heard by the audience, - 'A lick or a riff is a blur - an amalgam - that is taken as a whole' - BUT once the next note is played on the same string, there are no sonic artefacts left from the previous note, hence no cumulative effect whatsoever. What you use as an example is the equivalent of someone describing a strobe as a continuous light source just because they cannot differentiate the off/on/off/on/off.
A riff is still a series of individual notes regardless of how you attempt to muddy the water. If that is the basis of your cumulative 'proof', then I am absolutely convinced that you are unable to differentiate technique from tone or really have no clue how to explain what you mean. I keep asking time after time for specifics but now find ourselves transported front of stage for a lesson in ‘apparent sonic association’.

Your words, 'So, if a player adjusts the level of attack
and/or sustain using left and right hands, then that affects the tone'. I would say that sustain is the 'length' of time a note sounds and not its tonal characteristics.

I understand the words, but again there is no detail to qualify the statement, WHAT EXACTLY are the tonal changes?

You say, 'I'm not sure I agree with your premise that a fretting hand
Only does (x) and.... A decent player can adjust their touch almost without thinking'. Well yes, I agree I alter my touch to produce a specific note, but I am unable to visualise the reference as it leads the reader nowhere.

Be specific with what you imply - what EXACTLY can you do with your
hands to do anything other than alter the length of a string?

We seem to be back in the same position again, the onus of
Substantiation being with those who believe the fingers influence tone. It is not enough to simply say 'I believe they do', as is being done continually. I genuinely believe you now don't know what to believe.

A final word about the double standards at work here.

I see 1bassleft is thinking along the same lines as I originally did – someone adopting a dual personality. I considered it strange that someone would jump in at a point with virtually no track record of posts and documented my suspicions = for anyone can log in, type, log out, then log in as someone else, type a response, then log out.
Because they don't have the same IP address, they cannot be one and the same, yet strange how the element of doubt is left open as no-one jumps to confirm that in my case?

Yes bass, probably best not mention that.

1bassleft · Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:26 pm Post subject:

A sense of humour does form a percentage of a person's makeup. No need to get rattled; I said I "resisted the temptn" Smile

. Somebody else (you) once asserted it, and were dead flat wrong. I'm always happy to recheck my posts, and apol for any errors. Wasp, you never seem to.

You just go on and on and on. For the sake of hardworking police officers looking for a nice rest in the canteen without "totalanal" wandering in, I'm quite happy to do them a service. Keep ignoring any conciliatory gestures; keep homing in on minor disagreements and turning them into "I happen to be cleverer than you" posts. Best of all, keep saying that a fretting hand only cuts the frequency and nothing more.

The tragedy is, I'm convinced you're a better player than that. But, if you want to peddle it - it's your bike.

1bassleft · Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:37 am Post subject:

And one more try. If I caused you offence, let me say I have an anal streak that could handle the sewage output of NY/NJ. I actually have a favourite 12AX7. And a favourite EL34, and a favourite EL84. It only seems to matter to me; nobody else in the band (never mind the audience) gives a toss. I'm thinking about a noise filter to cut out the sound of my anorak rustling.

We have a song. The bass line backbones the song. The guitarist is (annoyingly) a decent bass player. The singer is (even more annoyingly) a previous bass player. Both of them had suggestions for the bassline. Not "replace the Svetlanas with Mullards", or "the 2x10 needs a 1x15" (I'd readily agree to that). No, the suggestion was that I stop hitting some of the notes, and let the fretting fingers play the passing notes.

They were right, and it was all about a difference in tone. I really can't say more, I am sure you understand this. Attack, decay, sustain. It's part of the tone. If you disagree, that's absolutely fine; but please don't ignore the point (however badly made) and shoot the messenger; that's just "chatroom" stuff.

youngwasp · Got Rhythm Joined: 19 May 2005 Posts: 71

Everything in life is based upon perspective and from this our own individual maps of the world are shaped. I fully appreciate that those things that challenge those beliefs are difficult to deal with on many levels, hence you ignore every salient point, every question, in fact everything that could have ended this weeks ago. I realize the questions and points I raise are difficult to tackle head on, therefore all the sidestepping and stonewalling.
This is the complete reverse of my own approach whereby I deal with your responses, quote you directly and supply answers – you seem to have trouble with that and I can only surmise that people don’t like their output being deconstructed so methodically.

I ‘go on and on’ only because you refuse to tackle my core point with any type of thought-through response. Not once have you or any of your cohorts attempted to supply any corroborating evidence to support your view - – you have intimate knowledge of the way audiences think and they perceive riffs as a blur - so case proven?? I must conclude my point about the strobe light hit home as this has been ignored.

You believe my posts are intended to highlight my being cleverer? Isn’t that usually the result of someone being compromised into feeling that? This is just me being me – but if that is what you feel, thanks you for the compliment but it is unnecessary.

You broached the subject about dual personality by saying you weren’t going to mention it BY mentioning it! You completely ignore the point I made about IP addresses – allowing people to carry on believing I could be FB – if you believe that is justified and not worthy of a response, then okay. I understand your need to help defuse any bad press in Lee’s direction from a third party.

You are ones who apparently need lots of brow soothing for literary indiscretions. If you need apologies to help readjust your internal state, then I apologise profusely to everyone concerned, being called a ‘twit’ must indeed wound the ego.

As for peddling my bike, you have had countless opportunites to deflate the tyres, but you seem more intent on handing me a pump.

You finish by asking me not to ignore ‘the point’ where your entire two posts have done that very thing.

I wonder why the new Line 6 pedals are called ‘Tone Core’?

1bassleft · Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:36 pm Post subject:

You got me there. Middle stump. Fair cop, guv. I'm so busy running off to get a Line 6 Tone Core, I might just be silent on this thread. Let me be the first to say that this is because I have been beaten by a better man. Buy more pedals, buy more pedals, buy more pedals. I absolutely cave in. I take everything back. I bow in your presence.

Rolling Eyes

I think that rolls it up.

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